Mangled boundaries and transatlantic bullshit

I would say “You shouldn’t feel like a jackass,” but fuck, I know I would be feeling the same way in a situation like that, so I can’t really talk.

Here’s hoping everything works out.

What is it you fear Dacia? realize it is fear that is fueling your emotions. Are you affraid he will enjoy your friends more than you? Are you affraid he changed his email because of you? Why not show your friends your displeasure? Why is it his fault? You sound like you got the love bug! The one that strikes when you are far away and you can not control the situation. Explanation? what is to explain? The fear is in your head. Understand the fear and your answers will come to you. Life is as simple as black and white, don’t create a gray world.

Christopher, please understand - this is not a jealousy or fear issue - this is a question of him violating my boundaries and an agreement that I thought we had. I am not creating a gray world - this is a very black and white issue: I said “Please don’t go to Jefferson’s parties while I’m away” and he did. That is pretty black and white.

Since you seem to be harping on my “fear,” I’ll address that a little. I tried to reason through my feelings about Jeremy attending the parties before I left, and realized that I just was not comfortable with it, because we’ve only been dating two months and I don’t know him well enough to want to turn him loose alone among my friends in either a sexual or non-sexual context. Is this fear that my friends will like him or dislike him a whole lot and will form a relationship with him beyond me? Maybe, but it’s something that I wasn’t able to force myself to get over - as much as I’d like my emotions to respond to rational thought processes, they don’t always, and I’ve learned that it is worth heeding emotions sometimes.

In your terms, I suppose I am confronting my fear now since he went ahead and went to the party anyway - so we’ll see where that goes. And - I have shown my friends my displeasure. It is Jeremy’s fault because he violated my boundaries - he took the iniative to do that, so blame is assigned accordingly. You seem to be conflating “the love bug” with jealousy - they are very different things, and furthermore, what I am experiencing is actually something altogether different - he violated my boundaries, and that makes me shitty, walked on and angry - and by the way, rational or not, I am entitled to those feelings.

A boundary is a boundary in any relationship. You negotiate, state it, whatever and it’s there. The parties involved can decide whether they can live with it or not and then decisions can be made from there. Boundary broken, trust lost. I felt compelled to write since even reading this made me angry and more angry when I read his email had changed and he hadn’t been in contact.

I stumbled onto your blog and am inspired by your reflections and rants. Thank you for putting it out there.

One of the “rookie” mistakes that folks make when they are looking at some flavor of polyamorous relationship is to assume that polyamory means the same thing as an “open relationship” i.e. ANYTHING GOES… BOUNDARIES ARE FOR WHIMPS!!11!1one

It sounds like Jeremy doesn’t see the difference.

Yet…

a knife blade there between trusting and forgiving (and enabling) and not being able to get past the broken trust… I am pretty much able to give folks the benefit of the doubt until they break my trust - then it can be almost impossible to trust them enough to actually have a relationship again… shrugs

Good luck hon… sorry the distance is compounding things as well

Christopher, I think it’s pretty disrespectful and presumptuous to attempt to dictate another’s feelings, or presume to understand all of the other person’s emotions, motives, worries, desires etc. better than the person him/herself. Aside from being disrespectful and presumptuous, it’s also just plain annoying.

It’s curious how people think that because you’re a slut or poly or whathaveyou that “anything goes.” But even more so than in conventional relationships you need to convey boundaries, something you seem to have done well, and something which Jeremy seems to have disrespected. Your feelings seem perfectly valid to me. I hope you get to talk to Jeremy soon.

Even in polyamorous relationships there are limits… I think particularly when things are new and you need time to build trust. We all seem to forget in this fast-paced world (myself included) that trust has to be earned over time and perhaps boundaries have to be a bit more restrictive until you can feel comfortable giving a huge amount of freedom. It grows, over time.

Then please explain to me why there is a problem? because he didn’t respect you? Sure there is hurt and i am not trying to disrespect that, i understand that. If you will be P.O. over it for the next few weeks and have it consume your thoughts then there is more to it. I ask things of people as well and they don’t always do as i ask or say. The fact that you had to even address it before hand left you with some doubts in mind. If you didn’t want him playing with your friends you should have stated to both parties. I don’t know the whole situtation so i am not trying to disrespect the “lifestyle”. I understand there are some rules or shall i say feelings. Dacia i am just trying to give you an outside view, not waxing your ass. The fact that it has sparked your anger shows you have emotions for him. All i am trying to say is understand those emotions. Are you angry he disrespected you or are you angry he hasn’t gotten back to you? Maybe he is not getting back to you because he doesn’t respect you and your feelings? My belief in life there are two emotions Love and Fear. If you love something you trust it 150% if you fear something you are not sure of something. Your friends are your friends and you love them and trust them, but obviously you didnt trust him otherwise you would not have had a problem with him going without you. You brought him there before you left i am guessing, that is how he knew how to get there and participate, why was it ok then and not when you were gone? You want him for yourself? I don’t mean to piss you off, just trying to help you vent and get it off your chest. It will eat away at you if you continue to wonder with no answers. Belle i am sorry you feel it is disrespectful and presumptuous to try and give my point of view. I do believe though that anger does come from fear.

Chris, I’ve gotta say, Dacia spelled her feelings out pretty clearly both in her initial blog entry and her comment in response to yours. If you can’t make sense of it the you should perhaps reconsider your “black and white” system… your inability to reconcile the situation based on your current either/or ideas seems to be diminishing your reading comprehension skills.

And if you believe in trusting someone 150%, why would you then suggest to Dacia that she let Jefferson know that Jeremy shouldn’t attend his parties while Dacia is away?

Forgive me for saying this, but I love reading about your problems because they make mine seem so manageable by comparison.

We lead somewhat similar lives, but yours is about nine times more intense.

As far as this situation is concerned: negotiation is of paramount importance in non-traditional relationships. If the terms of the negotiation are not going to be honored, then what’s the point? I think your request was reasonable and even if it wasn’t, he agreed to it. He should have discussed it with you if he was going to violate the terms and since he did, the least he owes you is an explanation. What did he think? He was gonna have sex with your friends and it not get back to you?

Please don’t torture yourself trying to understand his motivation. It’s taken me 32 years to learn that trying to figure out why people do what they do is like trying to predict the weather with a pair of chopsticks and a bolo-bat.

Christopher, you’ve sparked anger in me, and apparently many readers, does this mean we have emotions for you? I’m guessing no. If you live your life based on two emotions, fear and love, you’re missing something. In my experience those are two emotions that tend to frequent each other’s company. The rest of the emotional gamut in life is too rich to push aside for two (and only 2 of) the basest of emotions.

I’ve been married for about 5 years, and although we were married fairly young, we’ve been together for quite a long time (I’m 27 in case you want to gauge that). If I brought my wife to a co-workers (conventional, sorry, my co-workers are boring) party and then left for a few weeks, I’m not sure I’d be comfortable with her returning to a party while I was away. It has nothing to do with trust or fear; it would be awkward. Considering all that’s wrapped up in Jefferson’s parties, Dacia’s reaction seems perfectly appropriate to me. (Not to speak for her, but…) to me it would be a comfort issue. She was his pass to get in, but she was not entitling him to a membership.

Dacia set her boundaries for a reason; she thought it out, analyzed it and made her decision based on her personal reasons. Jeremy should have respected that. Rather than spout inane (and in my point of view, bullshit) psychobabble to try to get her to re-evaluate reasons she’s already evaluated, you should respect them too. Of course this is a public blog, and you are entitled to your opinion. However, you went beyond opinion into unqualified analysis. Whether respectful or not, it rubbed people the wrong way.

Davidwraith, it’s called schadenfreude, of course it makes you feel better ;). And, I tried the chop-sticks and bolo-bat thing… it kept telling me it was going to rain.

“My belief in life there are two emotions Love and Fear. If you love something you trust it 150% if you fear something you are not sure of something.”

So, let’s see, Christopher… you’re about 15 years old, right?

I find myself wondering what Jeremy was thinking when he went to the party. Was there a point the he thought of the agreement he was breaking? If so, what were those thoughts?

I’m not asking this in an attempt to shame him, but to understand why what he wanted and what Dacia wanted ended with his desires winning out. I wonder why going to Jefferson’s party was so important to him that he broke an agreement.

IMHO, Dacia should get a lot of attention paid to ehr feelings, but perhaps a deeper understanding of Jeremy’s feelings would prevent things like this from possibly happening in the future.

Coming from an ‘open’ relationship point of view, I believe it can be confusing when trying to explain boundary and trust issues to outsiders. Something I do to clarify the point is explain it in terms of a non-sexual/intimate act; sort of a boiing down to the basic principles thing.

Example situation: I request that my partner not smoke in my house and they proceed to do so. We’ll have something to clear up, then, as a clear request was ignored. Their motivation is hardly the question, in my book. It’s an indication that the boundary wasn’t comfortable for my partner, so a discussion and renegotiation is going to have to happen in order to move forward. It’s particularly interesting when I state a boundary or make a request, it’s honored and then I discover that I am uncomfortable with it. But I digress…that’s the colorful life we all lead regardless of the specific definitions of our relationships.

Dacia, you are totally justified in feeling the way you do just as you would be in any situation wherein your request isn’t respected. It sounds like you have some good support where you are, and I’ll add to it in the hopes that you can get to some resolution over on that side of the pond.

Thanks for all the interesting and thoughtful comments.

I haven’t heard from Jeremy, and I am slowly accepting that I may not, which means that I won’t ever know what caused him to make the choice he did about disrespecting my request. ms, thank you for the perspective on motivations - you’re right, the thing that matters is that the boundary-crossing happened. This sucks - but it isn’t going to consume my thoughts (some maybe, but not all) or torture me or whatever.

interesting problem. emotionally I would be afraid of “losing” said party to the fruits of others. However, in an open relationship you either trust or you don’t.

You did express your feelings and your expected boundary. He did not respect that for whatever reason.

However I cannot help but think that it’s somewhat hypocritical to expect him to avoid said party and seemingly cool people while you cavort and have fun in amsterdam.

Re: Hypocrisy

What I asked was for Jeremy to not hang out with/fuck my friends. I’m all for him going to other sex parties and fucking other people - he had my hearty go ahead for those activities.

After all, if I do any cavorting in Amsterdam, it will likewise be amongst strangers. And beyond that - Jeremy managed to get laid before I was in his life and introduced him to my friends.

Dacia— I ran into a naked Jeremy in the kitchen moments after showing up late at Jefferson’s party on Tuesday. I was confused at first and suspected something not so kosher. It didn’t take long before I realized that you didn’t know and/or approve it. I responded deep in my mind with a grimace and an “aww, crap”, while keeping a fairly neutral poker face, going “uh huh, uh huh” and mixing my drink. I decided to not get to into it with him, as I figured you’d hear about it soon enough. Besides, he is a straight boy and fairly useless to me at a bi-play party, so I didn’t want to associate with his discretions. The only girls there were Farahnaz (sp?) and one of Shelby’s friends visiting from out of town, so I don’t know how many of your friends he was playing with. Not that it matters.

Funny how you were thinking of quitting the party scene, I’ve been feeling the same. I’m sure it won’t last for more than a few weeks or months, but I’m just not as into it anymore. Going single to a party full of people with significant others/fuck buddies/lovers that they would be going home with together and cuddling…well, we’ve discussed before of how emotionally wearing that can become over time. Also, my own feelings in the aftermath of your injury, personal drama, and a bunch of other stuff I don’t even understand have all been weighing on me. Plus, you’re not in NYC, which really sucks. I might need to take a break too…but August usually gets really boring up here, hmmm… -T

Todd - actually, what’s funny is that I didn’t even give thought to who Jeremy might have played with until I read your comment. That further confirms in my mind that the issue really isn’t directly about the sex - it’s all about violation of boundaries.

I feel like I’ve now said “violation of boundaries” 42 million times, and not everyone is with me still. Perhaps I should accept that that’s how it is, and stop commenting constantly.

About the other stuff you mention - eh, I’ll just email you about that.

Christopher, honey, go crawl back under your rock, you pompous jumped-up, psychobabbling asshat…

Dacia - I don’t think your discomfort and anger at J are unjustified in the least. I wouldn’t want a guy i’d just barely started getting serious with socializing with MY friends while i was gone. Much less having sex with them, fer God’s sake! I think you were clear and unambiguous and that J is doing some dumbass ‘nanny nanny booboo look what I’m doing’ childish shit. Just ridiculous.

Being poly does not mean that people get to disrespect your wishes in a relationship. If anyting, i’d think there’d be MORE respect and care taken about boundaries in such a scenario. He needs to understand that what he did is NOT ok, and that you being gone does not give him a free pass to fuck anything that moves at your Jefferson’s parties.

Oh, he sighed, my my my.

I won’t address the Jeremy issue here, Dacia and I can do that one on one.

I just wanted to add: in our gang, summer is a transistion season. People are away, I am away, but I hew to the discipline: every two weeks, mi casa es su casa.

Last summer, that heralded a transition. The same night that Jane signed off on her brief experiment with group sex at my place, Raven opened her East Coast base of operations.

And so Burning Man infiltrated my parties.

This summer, Marcus plan to be here as much as possible.

Things change. But hopefully, the structure remains intact.

Reading the above, I do hope that Dacia and Todd remain among the regulars.

They know they can come and go as they please. The door remains open.

But man—you never saw two people better suited to all it takes.

Who are, y’know, boss friends.

“I feel like I’ve now said ‘violation of boundaries’ 42 million times, and not everyone is with me still. Perhaps I should accept that that’s how it is, and stop commenting constantly.”

We talked about this earlier - at a certain point one just has to accept that there are people out there who just won’t understand, no matter how clearly one explains oneself. (As I’m sure you realize, I’m saying this as much to myself as you, if not more so…)

I am popping my head out from under my rock miss lydia!!! Wow such hatred. I have noticed something very clear. Yes Dacia it is best you just move on. Fact is fact, he disrespected you, obviously he knows he broke his promise to you. Your peeps here are “waxing dacia” i understand that. I realize that the problems in this world stem from people like your readers. They make mountains out of mole hills. You were looking for answers and i tried to give my side of it. That is why you posted here? That is what you said right, Why did he break a promise and step over the boundries? You can talk about boundries all you want and that people dont understand open relationships. Well you are partial right. The thing is you can not control anybody but yourself. People today don’t respect one another. That is the way the world is today. That is bottom line. Sorry to you dacia for not rubbing your back and saying you have every right to be angry at him. If you will live the lifestyle understand that there will be people that will not comply with the rules that is the bottom line.

Wow, Christopher… Where do I sign up to assume everyone else in the world is a complete idiot?

I’m impressed that you “noticed something very clear.” That sounds like an improvement for you. At some point you may even progress to “grasping the obvious.”

The problems in this world may in fact stem from people like one of her readers. Hint: it’s the one you least expect. (Come on, it’s obvious, you can do it!)

Dacia. your take on things makes complete sense. Sorry your problem with one jerk seems to be compounded by another now.

Dacia - sorry bout the hypocrisy comment. Your reply clears that up.

Stay cool. Think about what really matters in this issue.

And I think that it may be the core issue of:

1) Did he agree to not see your friends. Did you make clear that it was important to you?

If so - he obviously don’t respect ya much. So - move on to someone who will cherish you, not abuse you. Even in such a subtle/not so subtle form.

If not - and he may play stupid when you know full well you were clear - give him a pass. Sex is a powerful drug. Some get addicted. Maybe he is?

Life’s to short to play these kind of shitty games.

Kevin - you’ve totally nailed it.

Though I did make it clear that it was important to me for him to not go to Jefferson’s party, and he said “I understand,” he did not say the sentence, “I agree to not go to Jefferson’s party in your absence.” So, while I thought that expressing my wishes formed an agreement, he clearly did not.

I suppose I didn’t realize that I needed to get that sentence out of him; I stupidly made the assumption that stating my wishes was enough. Though I don’t necessarily think that I failed in the communcation department, in the future I will be sure to be very precise. And you’re right, this action bespeaks a very certain lack of respect.

From where I am sitting, it looks as if Jeremy was trying to get off on a technicality. He knew how you felt about it and others at the party thought it was out of place. I think Kevin nailed it too, especially when he said maybe hes addicted to the sex. That can happen, and does quite frequently. Bottom line is you need to cut and run, it is senseless to waste time on people who dont respect your wishes. Once they know what they can get away with, nothing left to do but pull until something breaks. I feel for ya and will think about you at happy hour today, 2x.

Dacia,

Come on woman!! :) If he truely respected you he’d read between the lines and understand that him attending jeffersons party made you uncomfortable. As a matter of fact, he’d be so into you that he’d respect that boundary even if you hinted it. (Sorry for the double worn out cliche’s!)

I find that people who disrespect you play these games to make you unsure.

People get it. They are smart. They CAN and DO understand us when we aren’t clear. Expect them to.

Anyway - is this breach fatal? You don’t have to answer of course, but you probably need to decide. :(

I could be quite simple - he likes to fuck, and his dick is the man in the family. like 98% of men. So, it may not be insideous, just hedonistic.

I guess I have more respect for men in general to believe that they are all completely ruled by their dicks. Go read “I Am Not My Cock”, for example: http://www.thetalentshow.org/archives/001863.html

Would you be able to be in a relationship with someone that felt that it was ok to steal money out of your purse, just because you were a banker?

Itimate relationships require trust - because you are interacting with someone with your walls down. The fact that the trust was broken in regard to a specific sexual issue, totally masks the reality that, boundaries or not, your trust in him was broken.

If someone promises to do something (or not do something) and then intentionally goes out of their way to break their promise…

trust is broken…

true intimacies become impossibilities…

relationships evaporate - unless trust can be rebuilt.

This applies to all healthy relationships - sexual or otherwise. Denying the role of trust in a relationship is the kind of unhealthy behavior that an abuse victim engages in when they continue to be in relationships with people that abuse them.

The more one colors “outside the lines” the more important trust becomes…

It could have been “I will keep this secret” or “I will walk your dog and feed your cat.” It could have been someone promising to wait to see a movie with you and them going to watch it without you… it could be anything: if a promise was made - one should be able to expect someone to follow through on the promise if they are trustworthy…

When someone decides to break a trust, they do so in silent acceptance of the fact that whatever caused them to break their word has become more important to them than you and your relationship with them.

It is always a horrible thing when those we feel a deep connection to disappoint us by showing a lack of regard for our feelings and a lack of respect for our boundaries. You have my understanding and sympathy. It’s too bad that Jeremy can’t be an adult about this situation; that he feels the need to run and hide from you and what he has done. The silver lining on this cloud is that you only wasted a couple of months on him. You are wiser for it and can now dedicate yourself to seeking the love, respect and adoration you deserve from the partner of your choice. You rock, dacia, don’t let anybody bring you down!